Posts by drew sagan

55

Selection of the JWs in 1918/1919 - how might a JW attempt to show from the Bible

by insearchoftruth in

jw
friends

i had asked my wife, who is in the study phase with a jw sister about the selection of the jws by jc in 1918/1919 time frame and she had actually never heard of that.. the husband of this woman she is studying with has been chomping at the bit to talk to me...well my wife said she will ask him to come show me, using only the bible, how this selection was made...of course she did not clear this request with the dubman before telling me she would do this.. i am guessing he will be there when i get home from work tomorrow, she is also torturing our son with a bs now (her son from a previous marriage).. what sort of reach do you think he will try to make to show this...i am guessing he will try to show 1914 from the daniel/revelation stuff, if he does this i am going to ask him to show 607bce from a non jw source....since i believe it is 586/587 bce as a starting date......i hope to keep him on the 1918/1919 topic, and have some examples of their beliefs from that era to talk about as well.

drew sagan

It's a fallacy to judge a faith on it's origins rather than what it is now

Not if the Watchtower claims that the basis for its own authority rests upon what is doing at that time. It would not be relevant as you claim if the Watchtower did not put weight onto the events and practices of their group during the 1918/19 peroid. Instead, they claim that divine powers selected their group invisibly during those years because they were the most clean religion (and were also prophisied to come). The strained argument of the 3 1/2 years from 1918/19 to Jesus makes it quite apparent the desperate attempt to link their own history with something divine.

55

Selection of the JWs in 1918/1919 - how might a JW attempt to show from the Bible

by insearchoftruth in

jw
friends

i had asked my wife, who is in the study phase with a jw sister about the selection of the jws by jc in 1918/1919 time frame and she had actually never heard of that.. the husband of this woman she is studying with has been chomping at the bit to talk to me...well my wife said she will ask him to come show me, using only the bible, how this selection was made...of course she did not clear this request with the dubman before telling me she would do this.. i am guessing he will be there when i get home from work tomorrow, she is also torturing our son with a bs now (her son from a previous marriage).. what sort of reach do you think he will try to make to show this...i am guessing he will try to show 1914 from the daniel/revelation stuff, if he does this i am going to ask him to show 607bce from a non jw source....since i believe it is 586/587 bce as a starting date......i hope to keep him on the 1918/1919 topic, and have some examples of their beliefs from that era to talk about as well.

drew sagan

My question to JWs is why doesn't the Watchtower encourage them to read their old publications in order to understand why God chose them.

This is because the "evidence" used to convince people that the 1918/19 events are true rests upon their concept of a "pagan free theology", not specific facts surrounding that particuliar time (hence the vague dates and reasoning used to "prove" it true).

Most individuals who are given the Watchtowers arguments about 1918/19 are supposed to already have been converted into a set of unique beliefs (the name Jehovah is important, other churches are corrupt and full of pagan doctrines, ect.) The divine selection is a teaching that is tacked on, with the expectation that a person will simply accept it without much evidence. Thus, when you question this validity of the 1918 selection most JWs will automatically revert to discussions about the name Jehovah or the corruption of the curches, all the while asking their favorite question: "where else will we go?"

But what if an individual isn't properly "briefed" before they confront these teachings. Most likely people in this postiions will see them for what they are, silly, strange and self-serving.

55

Selection of the JWs in 1918/1919 - how might a JW attempt to show from the Bible

by insearchoftruth in

jw
friends

i had asked my wife, who is in the study phase with a jw sister about the selection of the jws by jc in 1918/1919 time frame and she had actually never heard of that.. the husband of this woman she is studying with has been chomping at the bit to talk to me...well my wife said she will ask him to come show me, using only the bible, how this selection was made...of course she did not clear this request with the dubman before telling me she would do this.. i am guessing he will be there when i get home from work tomorrow, she is also torturing our son with a bs now (her son from a previous marriage).. what sort of reach do you think he will try to make to show this...i am guessing he will try to show 1914 from the daniel/revelation stuff, if he does this i am going to ask him to show 607bce from a non jw source....since i believe it is 586/587 bce as a starting date......i hope to keep him on the 1918/1919 topic, and have some examples of their beliefs from that era to talk about as well.

drew sagan

insearchoftruth,

I think your best bet is to stick to the Isaiah book quote. The Watchter heavily relies upon the idea that 70 years is literal, yet in that book they say that a different 70 years was figurative without skipping a beat.

The less technical your argument is the better it will come off. Relying upon detailed chronology dating is not the way to go imo. You want something simple. I think the Isaiah book provides that. A few things to consider.

- Don't actually apply negative lables to your arguments. JWs typcially see everything as a battle between "good and evil". If they end up being wrong on a certain point, they automatically infer that you feel that they are on the side of evil (or something along those lines).\

- The main point about 1918/1919 is that the story promulgated by the Watchtower is a myth, something people within the organization slowly developed to explain and rationalize their own exsistance as a religion. This is something that is found in many faiths (modern ones such as the seventh day adventists and mormons are good comparisons, but traiditonal faiths like catholocism are good as well). Emphasis shoudn't be placed on assigning blame or casing negative accusations (e.g. The Watchtower are liars!), instead you should focus on how their beliefs are something that are common, i.e. "many religions create elaborate myths to validate their own exsistance, why are your bizzare stories backed up with dubious evidence any different?."

So using the Isaiah book quote as a starting point, you defend your belief that the 1918/1919 is something created by someone who had an interest to construct a myth to validate the Watchtowers exsistance (i.e. Rutherford). I would really focus on the individual (unknown of course) who thought up this idea. You can even ask rhetorical questions. Who was this guys? What were his motives? What did he (or his organization) seek to get by creating this doctrine or teaching?

You might also consider finding common ground. Get them to acknowledge first that other religions do actually create elaborte myths and stoires that validate the god given authority of the leaders of the group. One they agree that it has happened in other religions, you now turn it back to them. Why should the JWs be seen as different?

55

Selection of the JWs in 1918/1919 - how might a JW attempt to show from the Bible

by insearchoftruth in

jw
friends

i had asked my wife, who is in the study phase with a jw sister about the selection of the jws by jc in 1918/1919 time frame and she had actually never heard of that.. the husband of this woman she is studying with has been chomping at the bit to talk to me...well my wife said she will ask him to come show me, using only the bible, how this selection was made...of course she did not clear this request with the dubman before telling me she would do this.. i am guessing he will be there when i get home from work tomorrow, she is also torturing our son with a bs now (her son from a previous marriage).. what sort of reach do you think he will try to make to show this...i am guessing he will try to show 1914 from the daniel/revelation stuff, if he does this i am going to ask him to show 607bce from a non jw source....since i believe it is 586/587 bce as a starting date......i hope to keep him on the 1918/1919 topic, and have some examples of their beliefs from that era to talk about as well.

drew sagan

I found the exact quote:

***ip-1chap.19p.253JehovahProfanesthePrideofTyre***

"She Must Return to Her Hire"
21 Isaiah goes on to prophesy: "It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king." (Isaiah23:15a) Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will "be forgotten." True to the prophecy, for the duration of "one king"—the Babylonian Empire—the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial power. Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: "These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years." (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above "the stars of God." (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble. What will then happen to Tyre?

So in this case the WTS has no problem accepting that the 70 years is not literal, mainly because the Watchtower has nothing important resting on this prophecy. But when another prophecy involved in their own "divine selection" is involved you are the spawn of the devil if you suggest that anything but a literal 70 years is necessary.

55

Selection of the JWs in 1918/1919 - how might a JW attempt to show from the Bible

by insearchoftruth in

jw
friends

i had asked my wife, who is in the study phase with a jw sister about the selection of the jws by jc in 1918/1919 time frame and she had actually never heard of that.. the husband of this woman she is studying with has been chomping at the bit to talk to me...well my wife said she will ask him to come show me, using only the bible, how this selection was made...of course she did not clear this request with the dubman before telling me she would do this.. i am guessing he will be there when i get home from work tomorrow, she is also torturing our son with a bs now (her son from a previous marriage).. what sort of reach do you think he will try to make to show this...i am guessing he will try to show 1914 from the daniel/revelation stuff, if he does this i am going to ask him to show 607bce from a non jw source....since i believe it is 586/587 bce as a starting date......i hope to keep him on the 1918/1919 topic, and have some examples of their beliefs from that era to talk about as well.

drew sagan

An eaiser way to discredit the JWs can come from using their "Isaiah" book. In order to count back from 537 to 607 the prophecy MUST be interpreted as being exactly 70 years.

The Watchtowers own Isaiah book states that for another Bible prophecy against the city of Tyre, the number of years is not to be taken literally. So in one case the exact time frame is not important, but in another case is it a dire necessity. A very clear case of the WTS using whatever is necessary to prove what they wish.

55

Selection of the JWs in 1918/1919 - how might a JW attempt to show from the Bible

by insearchoftruth in

jw
friends

i had asked my wife, who is in the study phase with a jw sister about the selection of the jws by jc in 1918/1919 time frame and she had actually never heard of that.. the husband of this woman she is studying with has been chomping at the bit to talk to me...well my wife said she will ask him to come show me, using only the bible, how this selection was made...of course she did not clear this request with the dubman before telling me she would do this.. i am guessing he will be there when i get home from work tomorrow, she is also torturing our son with a bs now (her son from a previous marriage).. what sort of reach do you think he will try to make to show this...i am guessing he will try to show 1914 from the daniel/revelation stuff, if he does this i am going to ask him to show 607bce from a non jw source....since i believe it is 586/587 bce as a starting date......i hope to keep him on the 1918/1919 topic, and have some examples of their beliefs from that era to talk about as well.

drew sagan

It is very convoluted stuff, but a great topic to drill JWs on. Here is the likely path he will take.

1. Prove 1914 using Daniel and Revelation (plus either Mark or Matthew, can't remember which).

Part two is the really absurd part:

2. They teach (in their 'Revelation' book) that the time between Jesus baptism and death corresponds to the time between 1914 and 1918. Starting with 1914, you take the 3.5 years of Jesus ministry and add that and get sometime early in 1918.

So, not only does 1914 have to be proven (with all of its inconsistencies and code seeking absurdity) you then throw in the 1918 thing that is so apparently a stretch that I think even a JW who has to defend it will be somewhat embarrassed.

Don't let them jump the topic and start telling you about how "clean" they were back then, or that they were the only people that had the truth. Focus on dates! They most likely will say stuff like "we were the only ones right about the trinity, immortal soul, ect" and that is why God chose us.
1914/1918/1919 does everything for the Watchtower, but what exactly would an all powerful god need such confusing dates for?

20

Any DF'd or DA'd people ever get visits from Elders?

by drew sagan in

jw
friends

just saw the thread from otwo talking about the call he got from an elder who wanted to meet up.

it go me thinking about my own situation.

me and my wife have been gone for a while.

drew sagan

Welcome to the board boomerang715!

Your story is simliar to what happened with me and my wife (expect the time you were away from the JWs was longer). We haven't gone to meetings in months, and there was little feedback from the Elderbody. But as soon as the they learned my wife had joined the YMCA they where giving us calls and showing up at our house to take action.

I remember talking to another JW kid who was actually living with his "worldy" girlfriend. He hadn't been to meetings or talked with anybody for months (if not years), but when they heard he might be in a questionable situation, they were giving him calls to figure out if action needed to be taken.

33

Brenda Lee's new video

by isaacaustin in

jw
friends

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh8t7xybl04.

drew sagan

I thought it was total crap, like eveything else she makes. To each his own .

20

Any DF'd or DA'd people ever get visits from Elders?

by drew sagan in

jw
friends

just saw the thread from otwo talking about the call he got from an elder who wanted to meet up.

it go me thinking about my own situation.

me and my wife have been gone for a while.

drew sagan

Just saw the thread from OTWO talking about the call he got from an Elder who wanted to meet up. It go me thinking about my own situation. Me and my wife have been gone for a while. We both started missing meetings back in 2006, and completely stopped in 2007. I eventually DA'd and she was DF'd around the middle of 2007.

After we had our baby last September (2008) my wife got a call from an Elder inquiring about stopping by for a visit. She told him she wasn't interested but he could call on the phone if he wanted to. That was the last time we ever heard from them.

So in the past two years we were contacted once on the telephone.

I'm wondering how other DF'd or DA'd people have been treated. Is an effort made to contact you, or are you off the radar?

44

Is the NWT the best...

by Narkissos in

wt publication ever?.

or the worst?.

: in nwt i include the "study editions" with cross-references and footnotes, and the kit..

drew sagan

Reminds me of my discussion with a JW about Matthew 27: 52, 53. This has to be one of the most embarassing texts for any brand of Christian. I was still studying at the time (only about 16 years old). The JWs kepts telling me that the text was describing bodies that had fallen out of tombs. Yet here is how the NWT states it:

52 And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up, 53 (and persons, coming out from among the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy city,) and they became visible to many people.

Needless to say I didn't buy the argument. My JW friends seemed frustrated that I didn't go along with the explanation (something I didn't quite understand at the time). Eventually we moved on to another topic and I forgot about that strange little text untill years later during my exit .